haven't thought about that. I don't agree with same sex marriage, but I don't think I want it restricted by the government either. I'll get back to you on that.

The fetus cant have a say in it because it isnt even alive...thats another difference in opinion that we have, but from the sound of your second statment, you agree that there should be a choice. Everyone knows what my opinions on abortions are, but thats what it comes down to - choices. Im not saying abortion is the quick and easy way out, im saying it should be an option for the mother to have on her own w/o any outside influence. the circumstances of her pregnancy are irrelevant.

so you think someone who has a chronic pattern of making bad choices in life should be forced to have a kid? i think someone getting an abortion pretty much settles the argument of whether a kid would ruin her life or not. if it wasnt that much of a bad situation, then she prolly would have kept it. again, its up to her to make that choice.

women should be allowed to have inconsequential sex just as much as men are. and enough of the stereotypical 'girl gets preggers by her loser bf cause they were too stupid to know that sex = possible kids.' the majority of abortions may be performed on teens and young adults, but some older mothers, older women and people who just dont want any kids get abortions too.


[b]im not arguing that kids should be killed just because its out of your conciousness, they arent even kids. i dont think there are enough people in this country who want kids but cant have their own to curb out some sort of imagined epidemic of abortions. there are probably too many unattended kids at the moment and probably the vast majority of kids who get adopted are less than 2 years old, what about the kids no one wants to adopt? im all for adoption, i think it is a much better choice than abortion, but im not going to speak for some other girl, it may be a good alternative for her.[b]


[quote="TGB!":ebc60][quote:ebc60]Abortion would not have to be a choice if society helped these unexpected mothers more...[/quote:ebc60]
Another fine comment that has no place in reality -
You think the majority of women who get abortions are down on their luck minorities/poor whites who cant afford a kid?
[quote:ebc60]you 'pro lifers' force your moral opinions on other people about how life is sacred, but then cut funding for mothers who cant afford to raise kids[/quote:ebc60]
The two have fuck all to do with each other. Because I dont agree with abitrarily ending the life of a child, means that I should then have to SUPPORT all these children? Hardly. Morally, I can disagree with homosexuality, but that doesnt mean I'm going to take it to the next step and start rallying against them, or distrubiting anti-gay literature.
[quote:ebc60]precisely why they wanted the abortion in the first place.[/quote:ebc60]
Ill rope you in with ol' Master ShortHand up there - what do you think are the reasons women get abortions. . .and what do you think the demographics are. You'd be suprised how many successful women are saying "Fuck this" when that urine-stick reads positive.
[quote:ebc60]maybe you should worry about your own affairs and keep your noses out of other peoples business.[/quote:ebc60]
Do you have a problem with older men/women have consensual sex with minors 12-18, or think people engaging in such actions such be prosecuted or have their actions regulated?
[quote:ebc60]keep that in mind next time you think that girls shouldnt be having sex[/quote:ebc60]
The sign of a weak argument, is when someone has to reframe what their opponent has said. Noone here said to NOT have sex. However if you have IRRESPONSIBLE SEX - then the consequences are on your head. Period.[/quote:ebc60]

i think a good portion of abortions are performed on kids who cant afford to raise a kid, yes? how is that so surprising and far from reality? cut funding has alot to do with abortion, if there were local daycare programs and health care available to someone who was pregnant, that may entice her to keep and raise the baby. if she's going into a pregnancy w/o any help, then i would think that she would feel like shes at the end of her rope. when i said to mind your business im talking about people getting abortions, so dont try and turn this into something else. rape and incest are crimes, abortions are not. how is my last point a weak argument, read what others have written and tell me that people arent saying 'oh its her fault cause she fucked someone and now shes screwed, lololol.' I think women should be able to have sex just as much as guys can and its a fact that teens and younger people are having sex - that isnt going to change. why make a problem of teen pregnancy worse by making another problem of more teen and underage mothers? i think the whole babies are miracles routine is weak and i think the whole attitude of 'oh youre pregnant, well tough shit' is fucking lame because that does not provide any solution to this problem.

mad just doesn't see fetuses as life, that's the main issue here. With that different view, it is impossible for us to argue, you can't argue two sides when boths sides don't agree on the premises, it's useless. and mad, you are certainly entitled to think that fetuses aren't life, i just think that's a stupid way to think about the issue.

yes that is part of my point of view, but it also may be someone else's. i think the whole abortion issue is getting sidetracked; people do have kids, people do put their children up for adoption. some people get abortions. i think the choice should be open and it should be up for the mother, whats wrong with that? if people are going to make concessions for rape victims and health issues, then whats the point of putting limits? there certainly isnt a child shortage crisis going on - there are more than enough humans on this planet.

yes but if you thought that fetuses were lives, then you wouldn't want people to have a choice to kill them or not, because it woul dbe killing a person. Right now, it's not killing a person to you, which leads you to the rest of your conclusion on the issue. It all stems from whether or not you think fetuses are alive or not.

[quote="Nyck on page 1":04ff4]Now in the case of rape or the like, I fully support abortion.[/quote:04ff4]

[quote=Nyck][/quote:9a393]

Yeah okay, one person.

I'm kind of wanting to hear from the people who think there shouldn't be such a thing as abortion. People trying to have it outlawed instead of regulated. How would they feel in that situation?

What would they do if their wife/gf was raped and couldn't have an abortion. Would they help raise the kid?

correct. there isnt going to be a 100% satisfaction rate on this issue, but there can be a 50/50 settlement - which is legalized abortion.

but that's obviously not an acceptable (or "50/50") settlement for those of us who think fetuses are alive...

of course it is. if you dont want to abort fetuses, you dont have to get an abortion.

I personally am against abortions unless they are under certain extreme circumstances (i.e. being raped), I can completely understand why women would want an abortion after being raped, living with the fact you would eventually have to tell your kid who your dad was, knowing the dad is a filthy twat etc. However if I made my gf pregnant, and she wanted an abortion I personally would try my hardest to keep it, even though I personally think i'm too young to have a kid at this stage, I would still attempt to persuade her to keep it. Because of my views on abortion. I would ensure I was a perfect dad anyway, and ensure I would support my gf and son/daughter, to the best of my ability.

pretty much summed it up

yeah, you're not understanding a critical part of the issue here. People who think fetuses are alive do not want to stand idle while they are killed. Because they beleive they are lives, killing them is murder, therefore, they don't want people to get them, because they don't want anyone to murder. Saying that people who don't want them shouldn't get them is like telling people not to be serial killers if they don't want to be, but allow people who do want to be to do it. Understand?

yes i understand, but considering that a significant minority/majority of people think that it is an option that should be available, i feel like that should be taken into consideration as well. i want to clarify what i said - imo there is a difference between a fetus, a fertilized egg and a baby that is a month away from being born. There are differences, and i agree that a fetus is a human being a month before it is born because it is practically ready to come out. i just think that a mothers choice takes priority over the babys life. as fucked up as it sounds, a mother who would wait for the last minute to have an abortion is a total dick, but it is her choice. there are too many circumstances for me to say that i would agree with that abortion choice or i would totally be against a decision to make an abortion (because there some instances where i am), so i dont think it is plausible to make a law respecting some abortion chioces and outright banning others. i think late term abortions are sick and fucked up whereas early terms arent. the reason why i would argue to keep abortions legal because im not making a decision based on my personal preference - im basing it on the fact that other people have different views and so pro choice is a path that provides choices for both sides.

how does it provide choices for both sides?

because if you are against abortion, you can make the choice to not have one. if you are pro choice, you can choose to have an abortion. i know im re-itteratin what i said before, but this way everyone wins. if you ban abortions, you appease only one side of the equation. both sides have their voices heard, its just that pro life people will have to accept the difference in opinion (not accept abortion) on whether a fetus's life is more important than the mothers choice.

So Mad what your saying is your for KILLING BABIES if the mother doesn't want to be bothered with them.

And as long as we call it something else, so it doesn't sound so fucking bad.

No actually, it would be KILLING FETUS'S - It isn't a "baby" until it leaves the womb. Now who's calling it something else to make themselves feel better.

I don't see a problem with "killing" something that wasn't even conscious in the first place. What you're arguing here is the death of a POTENTIAL life.

Do you think you shouldn't take a coma patient off of life support because there is a possibility they might came out of it and live a full life?

What if the fetus is threatening the mother's life? Is it okay to let a woman die so that a potential life can be led?

I also don't understand the serial killer comparison - Serial Killers are sick individuals who generally get pleasure from killing CONSCIOUS people who are fully aware of their own existence, and who have actually met people and shared experiences and LIVED - They've been BORN.

Jacking off into a kleenex is an abortion as well. Sperm is a potential child, that isn't conscious...

What about the morning after pill? Because that initial phase of the pregnancy that has been aborted, doesn't resemble a baby in looks, it makes it okay? I don't get it.

Issues were the right finds the need to enforce their will and morales on other people who for the most part they don't know, they don't care about and probally don't like.

Abortion - It's not your FETUS, it's not your life, it's not your decision to make. Fuck off and let people take care of their misrable exsitances.

Gay Marriage - Again, none of your business nor does it affect you in anyway.

Stem Cell Research - If you don't want the cure don't get it, but don't hold the rest of the species back with your false emotional attachment to things that will never be human, or just flat out ignorance towards modern medicine.

Assisted Suicide - Again, if the person wants to die let them, I don't see why you try to stop people who have terrible diseases and ailments from killing themselves but don't even attempt to apply your beliefs to inmates about be executed. Ever heard of "Redemption" or "Forgiveness" how about that crazy one "Turn the other cheek..."?

All these issues share on common thread, they are OTHER PEOPLES DECISIONS TO MAKE! No one asked you to save them from the wrath of a vengeful God or whatever crock of shit excuse is for interfering in other peoples lives.

Stop caring about the unborn and start caring about the millions of babies who are born.

PS: And to add on to what Tripper said, the law is so fucking general that it doesnt protect young girls who were victims of rape and incest.

My thoughts exactly....I mean, these same people that argue about abortion being wrong don't seem to bat an eye at the 30,000 civilian deaths that their support of their government's foreign policy caused, in a war based on false pretenses.....Not a care at all.

So keen to keep people alive and within the realms of their religious bullshit, and yet they contradict all of it with blind support of insane military actions overseas, where INNOCENT civilian death greatly outnumbers anything else.

[quote:bf077]OTHER PEOPLES DECISIONS TO MAKE![/quote:bf077]

Again - if a 13 yr old makes the decision to have consensual sex and marry an adult - totally ok with you and undeserving of our attention?

[quote="TGB!":e17ac][quote:e17ac]OTHER PEOPLES DECISIONS TO MAKE![/quote:e17ac]

Again - if a 13 yr old makes the decision to have consensual sex and marry an adult - totally ok with you and undeserving of our attention?[/quote:e17ac]

If that's what happens to float your boat and the 13 year olds, then sure. Not my concern.

The main point is, it's not your life, and it's not your decision to make for someone based on your own personal taboos, I find the idea of it disgusting but it's not my life so have a good time with your 13 year old Husband/Wife.

Plus TGB! I have to say that's one of the worst "I gotcha now" rebuttals ever...

[quote:34b5b]Plus TGB! I have to say that's one of the worst "I gotcha now" rebuttals ever...[/quote:34b5b]

Your childish assertion is that the personal lives of American citizens is none of the laws business so long as "the law" is being adhered to, and that we shouldnt legislate morality - two opinions which go contrary to what we do EVERYDAY.

The law butts it "nose" into the lives of American citizens everyday and some would say we are the better for it. Everything from how you treat your kids, to how many people you can marry - its ALL personal lives regulated and metered. YOU may have no problem with a 13 yr old fucking an adult - but many people legitimately would (the parents for instance). It is RIDICULOUS to assume that you're an island unto yourself, and that your actions and their consequences are limited to yourself.

As for legislating morality - be glad people think that its a WRONG to rob, steal, and commit other acts, especially for someone living in NJ.

you are all missing the point of my argument. People who don't support abortion are usually people who beleive the fetus is a person. Therefore, they beleive aborting that person is murder. Saying that, you can't say, "it's not your fetus, why do you care?" because that would be equivalent to saying, "you're not the one committing murder, why do you care?" If people genuinely think you are terminating an innocent life, they have a moral obligation to object to it, even if it's someone else doing it. Just as we have a moral obligation to try to stop people from killing there husbands, wives, etc... Why can't you understand that? I don't care if you think that fetuses aren't people, but you have to understand the argument of the people who do in order to understand their position and debate it, which half of you can't seem to do.

Trip, you don't have to think a fetus is a person, but that doesn't mean it isn't because you say it isn't. There are loads of people who think they are, your opinion on the issue is not an end all solution. And if you want to provide an example like the "30,000 civilian deaths that their support of their government's foreign policy caused, in a war based on false pretenses." I would pick one that isn't arguable.

Stammer, I have no clue what you are talking about in the assisted suicide part of your post with the "turn the other cheek" reference, do you even know what that quote means? Please elaborate if you do, because it makes no sense as it is. And Stammer, you are being too general in the classification of what the right wing is "telling" people to do. All those issues are much more complex than you made them, and by no means do right wingers have a consensus on all of them.

Nicely summed it up. I personally think that once its fertilized and settled in the womb, it shouldnt be removed unless its under certain circumstances because from then in my opinion it is a human. I cannot stand it when people want/have abortions just because they dont feel like having a baby.

I personally think the abortion process should be regulated, so each case should be reviewed, and a decision made from a qualified person. and an appeal process/ second opinion should also be put in place.

[quote="TGB!":1aad7]Your childish assertion is that the personal lives of American citizens is none of the laws business so long as "the law" is being adhered to, and that we shouldnt legislate morality - two opinions which go contrary to what we do EVERYDAY.[/quote:1aad7]

And your pompous assertion that the Government has every right to regulate the personal lives and reproductive lives of it's citizens is a mockery of what it means to have your own say in your own business. Ever heard of something called "personal responsibility"? I don't need you or some evangelical telling my wife/girlfriend whomever that she can't have an abortion because it's not kosher in someone else's view, or that two gays can't get married because it disrupts your Religious beliefs or that assisted suicide is wrong because people shouldn't have a say in their own death but you have every right to decide the fate of an individual because you hold the illusion of moral superiority.

[quote="TGB!":1aad7]The law butts it "nose" into the lives of American citizens everyday and some would say we are the better for it. Everything from how you treat your kids, to how many people you can marry - its ALL personal lives regulated and metered.[/quote:1aad7]

And...? Some laws cross the line with an individuals right to dictate their own life, when it comes to theft and murder you need more then one person to do that and I'm going out on a limb here and assuming that most people aren't going to consent to being murdered and stolen from.

oOo:

[quote="TGB!":1aad7]YOU may have no problem with a 13 yr old fucking an adult - but many people legitimately would (the parents for instance). It is RIDICULOUS to assume that you're an island unto yourself, and that your actions and their consequences are limited to yourself.[/quote:1aad7]

HA HA HA! Who's to say what legitimate marriage is? What if the parents said it was alright for their son/daughter to marry? You assume to much about people based on your own taboos.

[quote="TGB!":1aad7]As for legislating morality - be glad people think that its a WRONG to rob, steal, and commit other acts, especially for someone living in NJ.[/quote:1aad7]

Umm? Last time I checked those all involve another person my argument is based around an individuals right to decide what to do on their "own little island". Last time I check to steal or murder you needed another person to murder or steal from. Assisted suicide, or abortion is a personal choice not something to be regulated because some one feels it's wrong.

The "turn the other cheek" portion of my post had nothing to do with suicide it had to do with the execution of a prisoner, if the Religious right is so big on the bible and life why not "turn the other cheek" and forgive people for their past sins? Isn't that the point of forgiveness or repentance?

How are they more complex, because they don't appear complex to me. You make them complex.

Abortion - Woman wants to abort a fetus.

Assisted Suicide - Someone wants to kill themselves due to a severe medical condition which will eventually kill them in a short period of time.

Gay Marriage - A same sex couple wishes to marry.

Sorry I don't see the complexity.

[quote:aa5ca]And your pompous assertion that the Government has every right to regulate the personal lives and reproductive lives of it's citizens is a mockery of what it means to have your own say in your own business.[/quote:aa5ca]

Wah - didnt say that, but if its the only way for you make your point - go right ahead. Big Bad Government has ALWAYS been involved in your life, from telling you what you can/cannot eat/drink, who you can/cannot be involved with, where you can/cannot go. Your lame tract that whatever BB says/does is wrong - is pedantry at its worst.

[quote:aa5ca] don't need you or some evangelical telling my wife/girlfriend whomever that she can't have an abortion because it's not kosher in someone else's view, or that two gays can't get married because it disrupts your Religious beliefs or that assisted suicide is wrong because people shouldn't have a say in their own death but you have every right to decide the fate of an individual because you hold the illusion of moral superiority.[/quote:aa5ca]

Again - pedantric response to the argument. Who says every opposition to abortion, gay marraige, and assisted suicide is one based in religion? I need to be a religious nut to think a fetus is a living thing imbued with "life". I need to be a religious nut to think that I shouldnt have to have pay for societies "tolerance" and "acceptance of gays? I need to be a religious nut to think that leglislating a "pain threshold" for terminal patients is a slippery slope we dont want to go down?

Get the hell out of your local JC and the campus SOCIALIST CLUB and get into the real world.

I never said I didn't think fetus' were ALIVE - I said they weren't conscious. That's not a 'belief' that's a FACT. A plant is alive....and yet you don't hesitate to rip those out if they look ugly. A cow is alive....and yet you don't hesitate to tear your teeth into a big piece of beef steak.

The 30,000 casualty statement was a reference to Stammer's post:
I was making a generalised comparison based on his post about "typical" right wingers (Mainly the ones I've encountered on this forum) who seem to all express themselves on moral homeland issues against such things as abortion, euthenasia, etc and then not even seem to give two shits about the incredible statistic of civilian casualties in the Iraq war which they strongly support. I may not be talking about all right wing conservatives here, but the vast majority of the ones who post on this forum certainly present themselves this way....
Don't you feel like you're contradicting yourself when you sit so strongly for life when it comes to domestic issues, but when it's foreign policy it's "who gives a shit, we're doing what's best for them." ??

Ok so it make you feel better to call it a fetus, which is Latin for BABY, then we'll call it a fetus. Your position then is that it's ok to kill them, right.

Fuck all you dudes who masturbate are killing potential dudes or dudettes.

My stance is...if it doens't know of its being...it isn't gonna to care if it gets popped.

The point isn't that the baby...errr fetus knows it's being killed, it's that you know it's being killed.

You can't compare human beings to cows and plants, they are obviously different.

You also can't compare it to the innocents killed in Iraq, they were killed accidentally, not deliberately.

Now if you're talking about us not doing anything about people in Africa who are getting killed or other places where people are killed and we don't seem interested, I understand that. I think the United STates should make more of an effort to help in those situations, but other than that, I don't think the comparisons you are making are accurate at all.

Stammer, there are obviously people who are against abortion for religious reasons but I would dare to say that most who are against abortions are against them because they feel it is murder, not because they think the Bible says it is a sin. I don't think religion is as involved with this issue as you think it is.

Again, this thread is stupid. Everytime we argue abortion here it comes to the basic fact of whether or not you beleive that aborting a fetus is equivalent to taking life. If you don't have that premise, the argument is nonsensical, it's stupid and it will never generate a solution because the fact of the matter is that the opinions on the issue are based on almost completely that one fact and if there isn't understanding that that fact is a core, unchangeable premise of the person's beleif who is arguing, it is useless to argue.

Whatever.

The point I'm trying to make now is that you absolutely contradict yourself with your views.

It's so fucking pig-ignorant. You have been one of the most outspoken in your support of the war - and you have also been one of the most outspoken against killing unborn babies. When you supported your presidents actions to invade Iraq, you were supporting the potential deaths of thousands of people who have lived their lives innocently....and then you say there is no case for aborting babies, totally denouncing it....

You never once commented on whether or not you believe it's okay in some circumstances to abort a child (i.e in the situation of rape - which I prompted as a question a few times in this thread already) so I'm finding it hard to figure where you are coming from....but based on what I have read from you I'd say you were hard-line against it in all forms. Regulated or unregulated.

To say that and then not speak out against your government and instead totally support the actions just seem hypocritical....To be so supportive of a POTENTIAL life, and then so uncaring and attempting to justify life being cut short - It doesn't make sense.

You all knew there would be civilian casualties in the Iraq war and yet you support that (which is fine and dandy) but then to go and make such a huge deal about aborting babies and to strike such a hardline against it is really weird.

I just don't get some of you conservatives at times, at least the whiney liberals seem to not be as mixed up with their morals....

I don't know this just reminds me how USa wa spissed at Germany in the 1936 Berlin Olympics for not wanting any jews to participate...but didn't even congradulate Jessie Owens on his medals...Hell Hitler gave the guy more respect.

It's just more hypocrisy...and i don't understand...but Tripper makes a good point about sending troops to Iraq knowing they'd die...but killing an unborn child before it isn't even close to being human imo...is wrong?

[quote:b9b51]You have been one of the most outspoken in your support of the war - and you have also been one of the most outspoken against killing unborn babies. When you supported your presidents actions to invade Iraq, you were supporting the potential deaths of thousands of people who have lived their lives innocently....and then you say there is no case for aborting babies, totally denouncing it....[/quote:b9b51]

TRIPPER dont play obtuse - youre above these kinds of logical traps. One act is done without concrete evidence that innocent life will be lost; the other is an EXPLICIT act to snuff out life.

Death, and loss of life is only one by-product of many in regards to WAR; abortion only has one by-product - death.

[quote:a2b21]Whatever.

The point I'm trying to make now is that you absolutely contradict yourself with your views.

It's so fucking pig-ignorant. You have been one of the most outspoken in your support of the war - and you have also been one of the most outspoken against killing unborn babies. When you supported your presidents actions to invade Iraq, you were supporting the potential deaths of thousands of people who have lived their lives innocently....and then you say there is no case for aborting babies, totally denouncing it....

You never once commented on whether or not you believe it's okay in some circumstances to abort a child (i.e in the situation of rape - which I prompted as a question a few times in this thread already) so I'm finding it hard to figure where you are coming from....but based on what I have read from you I'd say you were hard-line against it in all forms. Regulated or unregulated.

To say that and then not speak out against your government and instead totally support the actions just seem hypocritical....To be so supportive of a POTENTIAL life, and then so uncaring and attempting to justify life being cut short - It doesn't make sense. [/quote:a2b21]

In Iraq, people were being killed by Saddam. Just like I beleive fetuses are being killed in abortions. Same deal. Now, I know there is the fact that there would be innocent deaths in the Iraq War, but that number will be lower than the total number killed by Saddam already and in the future had he not been taken out of power. That's the difference for me. I care about the innocent lives lost in Iraq, but they were sacrifices made accidentally in order to ensure less deaths in the end. That's the way I see it, it's the same, I don't want to allow Saddam to kill innocents just like I don't want irresponsible mothers to kill innocent fetuses, that's clearly not contradiction, but similarity.

As for rape. I'm not as sure as the rape situation. Rape abortions are undoubtedly much more rare than non rape abortions. I can't say that I agree with aborting a fetus in that case because it's clearly still a life (to me) so that would be wrong. However, I don't think I have anything against the morning after pill for rape victims. As for the case where mothers are in danger, that's a doozy. I guess it would depend on the specific case, but I think I would generally side with the mother's health.

I hope that satisfies you because I'm pretty tired of arguing this, I've made my views pretty clear and I don't think anyone is gonna change their mind for reasons I've already stated, plus, I have two papers and two tests this week and I've already typed more in this thread than in the paper I'm working on right now.

When did I post any support for the president or his war. I may have shown support for the troops, or for my country, but never for a Bush. I'd like to see all the killing stopped now.

I hate when people say they support the troops but not the war...ugh.

what's wrong with that?

yeah...whats wrong with supported the kids who just want money to have a college education being forced to go and kill for an unjustified reason?

Though I don't support the ones who think they are justified in killing innocent iraqis and all those fucking videos i saw of there immature antics.