[quote="Short Hand":1efda]I can't fucking beleive someone as bright as your are Colonel can't fucking conceive how much of a fucking disater Iraq has been. Stop dreaming up your fantasy Iraq.. AND start conceding some ground on this topic.[/quote:1efda]


you could swollow that pill too

Firstly your comment about the drop in kidnappings is false. This article was published in 2003 so it is alittle outdated - http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0910/p05s02-woiq.html
But today on some blog I found a link to the washington post and it said that 30-50 are being kidnapped in Iraq each day..EACH DAY. I don't have the link because I visit alot of sites each day searching for the news. If you don't believe me, thats fine.

Yes the media has a fascination with Iraq. I wonder why? I leave that question to you to answer.

You also seem optimistic that you won the war, no point in me saying anything else because that is a pretty strange comment none the less.

It's nice to know you have vets in your internet clan. I have a question to you though. Do you have kids? If you "appreciate" what America is doing in Iraq, why don't you have your kids sign up and fight for your country, make them do a tour of duty in Iraq, have them walk the streets of Sadr city and hope for the best. Would you do such a thing? Have them fight for a war which you and your fellow country men were so blindly drawn in to.

I encourage you to read this article. It was just recently published so it has good statistics on it..I posted it on the first page but I'm sure most people didn't want to read it because it is too long.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/mid ... 350776.ece

First of all, Ninty is right. The military is not a police force. They are not trained as police officers. That's why there are MPs. At this point they are out of there element.

I had a contractor working for me who served years ago in the Iraqi Replublican guard and who still has family in Bahgdad who would disagree with your sentiment that being without Saddam is something trivial.

I'm not sure if you're trying to imply that the Iraqi people are merely "untermenschen", to steal the term from the article, but it seems like you're saying the only way to control the masses in Iraq is through fear and dictatorship.

I would also like to point out that the majority of the left-wing, in this country at least, initially supported the war. Now, that it has become a bit messy, all they do is criticize. No one from the left is offering any constructive ideas about how to clean up the mess. This is the reason that they won't win the Presidency the next time around either.

It's not that I "don't believe you", I respect your opinion, I just don't agree with your conclusions. Sure, you can find articles that talk about kidnappings increasing among the average people. I think the article said something like "the average person did not fear kidnapping under the former regime." But who were they interviewing? A person that posed no threat to Saddam? A person that wasn't on the Olympic soccer team? Of course if someone sees an incresse in crime in their neighborhood they think it is that way all over. Same in the US. Total crime may be down but if it is up in your area then that's all you know. Once they have kidnapped and murdered a half a million then I'll change my opinion.


There is a difference between fighting a "war" and putting down a terrorist uprising. To me, war is two armies slugging it out. What we are doing now, IMO, is more of a police action than it is a war. Saddam's army was defeated and many of his soldiers are now working side-by-side with allied troops. I know everybody loves to keep talking about war, but to me the "war" is over and now we are fighting common terrorists. (which is one reason I could see them releasing some of the guys at Gitmo - if they are POW's then let them go - if they are terrorists keep them there)

Yes I do have kids. Two girls. If they wanted to volunteer then I would support them. BTW - I don't think we were blindly drawn into anything.



I read it the other day. Interesting perspective. I once had a statistics professor that said he can make stats say anything he wanted them to. Both sides in this arguement use stats to prove their point. In the end it comes down to whether we are going to allow terrorists to blow up the WTC, Pentagon, subways around the world, buses in countries around the world, etc. and not do anyting about it, or whether we are going to take the fight to them and "all who harbor them".




LOL - maybe I'm not as bright as you think I am. LOL - or maybe Iraq is not a disaster. During WWII there were many in the US who did not agree with the war. There were even anti-war protesters. I don't mind folks voicing their opposition to us going to Iraq. Healthy debate is what makes democracy work. In fact, I think it is kinda funny that some folks in Iraq are now openly protesting. I wonder if they see the irony in the fact aht if they had done that when Saddam was in power that he would have had them killed.

I see what you are saying tomxtr. But this republican guard..were does his family live and are they alittle wealthy or middle class? From what I read in books from independent journalists to ones working for magazines such as the new yorker..they all say the same thing. Once the CPA came in and did their debaathification process many people lost jobs. Then water, electricity shortages made people grow angry. I know many people turned out for the elections and voted. But I really think America has to leave, Iraqis want the soliders gone, the soldiers themselves want to leave and many americans want to pull out.

No I am not implying that Iraq, now, needs a dictator. I know I build sentences strange..but that was not my intended message. Basically I was questioning how the new government will be able to control the sunnis, shia and the kurds all in one province.

And lastly, I was for the war like I said in that political belifs thread. I wanted to see Saddam gone and see Iraqis free from a tyrant. But somewhere along the roads America took a wrong turn in Iraq. You guys really undermined the capabilities of the insurgents. And can that last remark be used to describe if you speak out against your country you are unpatriotic..or am I just thinking things? The left wants america out of Iraq...thats it.

And Colonel if you don't agree with the statistics thats fine.

Violence + turmoil = better rankings. Anything the media can make a big deal about over there, they will. That's the definitive answer for you.

Vance, you always were a quick thinker.

I agree with the statistics. I am just interpreting them differently. And I am more likely to look at the statistic of 500,000 murdered under Saddam (the "government" at the time) and a handful, comparatively speaking, since he was gone - and zero of those by the ruling government (those that are being killed are being killed by terrorist, not the ruling authority. Big difference.

And all the "no electricity" arguments are old. Yes, the country was largely without power after we bombed the crap out of it. But. at least according to the letters from the front that I've seen, that is not a substantial problem now.

What will you say once the civil war takes full effect and another million die ? WILL you still be gung ho for this ?

Staffan de Mistura, UNDP representative, May 2005

THE STATISTIC:

5.2 average number of hours of electricity in Baghdad homes

[quote="Short Hand":75486]
What will you say once the civil war takes full effect and another million die ? WILL you still be gung ho for this ?[/quote:75486]

Probably, but I'll have to wait until then to know for sure. I still supported what we were doing in Vietnam after the Tet Offensive. I believe in finishing a job once you start it.

Machette, how much electricity were they getting before? I'm sure they are having problems but according to what I have been reading they are making steady improvements and I think the news of doom and gloom are being overblown.

[url:aca00]http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pdffiles/PUB637.pdf[/url:aca00]

For anyone interested in a long but interesting read, check this out. Its written by some guys at the US Army War College (where my dad used to teach) and discusses what went wrong in Iraq. It discusses which criticisms of the administation are founded and which ones are not. I think that both sides would find it interesting.

the War College is in Carlisle, PA right?

Yup.

tomxtr how old are you? 35? eek: