David Irving Jailed
 

http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArt ... IRVING.xml

I think this trial came at the right time in the whole freedom of speech debate over the cartoons causing massive protest in muslim countries..My question to you is, do you think David Irving has the right to deny the holocaust?

Whether we like it or not, he has every right to say what he wants.

Firstly I think even mentioning that mohammed cartoon rubbish in the same sentence as the holocaust is offensive, however if you insist,

I believe irving can say what he likes, but if he is arrogant enough to travel to a country that has laws against expressing that view and ends up in jail then LOL!

It'd be like me going to iran and telling eveyone mohammed must have been a paedo because he married a nine year old when he was nearly sixty, my views on freedom of speech (even when my statements are factual) would not stop me being torn to pieces.

[quote="Eight Ace":10834]Firstly I think even mentioning that mohammed cartoon rubbish in the same sentence as the holocaust is offensive, however if you insist,[/quote:10834]

It's on the same debate level, look at what that Iran paper is doing..having a contest on who can make a cartoon best on mocking the holocaust.

[quote=Machette]It's on the same debate level, look at what that Iran paper is doing..having a contest on who can make a cartoon best on mocking the holocaust.[/quote:7092d]

and this is a surprise?

if i made a cartoon mocking christian conservatives, they would retaliate against me.

The reasoning behind their decision to do so is to see just how far this freedom of speech argument can go.

just because one country claims that it is a human right to have free speech doesnt mean that the whole world should obey it.

So you are against these muslim cartoons, that basically deface muslim cartoons?

This thread is jumping all over the place...So most of you believe that irving should speak his words about how the holocaust didn't exist, and that gas chambers were never at auschwitz? Should not be restricted in any way?

i am not supporting the defacement of the holocaust, nor am i supporting the creation and escalation of the prophet Muhammad cartoon issue.


this whole thing is like a catch22...

edit:

Irving shouldn't be spreading lies. It is a well established fact that there were nazi death camps. even the arabs acknowlidge this, but their claim is that the jews used it to profit and gain Isreal.

edit 2:

Machette, i noticed you changed your sig..what gives ?

I support the belief for man to be able to speak freely.

I also expect people to have some sense of intelligence when speaking against things that are proven fact and to have some sense of intelligence when doing something so stupid knowing full well that its going to incite unecessary problems.

I mean what benefit comes from defacing someones religion

Absolutley not. In Canada we have the charter of rights and freedoms, our constitution. Now he was in another country, and I suppose their laws must be respected, however I do not agree with jailing this man for speaking what he wants to say. Censorship is never good. You don't have to listen to what he says if you don't want to.

I personally believe if Black panthers, KKK, Neo Nazis etc want to hold rallies and peaceful demonstrations there shouldn't be, and really, there is no law against such a thing. These people are allowed to ahev a voice just like you or me, and just because they believe something different doesn't, however much you disagree doesn't mean that they don't have a right to do so.

The belief that he should be censored because of his certain beliefs is really anti-democratic. There are basic freedoms that should not be infringed upon. This is one of them.

I know I'm throwing questions out, but this is a controversial subject...
Nyck by saying "I mean what benefit comes from defacing someones religion" can be used for the muslim cause..what benefit does come from defacing their religion? I personally never found the cartoons funny and many others I know didn't. What did we gain from these horrid cartoons? The reason I believe the muslims take these cartoons the wrong way is not to wage a jihad against the world, its just that they were made fun of at the wrong time. In the first world most of us have learnt about the holocaust and what it did, thus we are more open to debate about it then we used to be.

Also Acideyez, I changed it because I felt it criss-crossed some of my values on this debate.

a similar thing happened a while back in Skokie, Illinios I think. There was a big deal about the KKK rallying in a predominantly jewish area. The KKK was allowed to rally, but they didn't because they feared the backlash that would occur. It might have been Neo Nazis though.

I think he should certainly be allowed to express his views as according to the freedom of speech, but the problem is, not all countries have that freedom legally. A country has a right to not allow freedom of speech because of their sovereignty, so therefore, there rules should be respected. It's like marijuana laws. it may be legal to smoke in some countries, but if you bring it to the USA, you have to know that you aren't protected by a law that allows you the freedom to use it, just as this guy wasn't protected by a law to protect his freedom of speech.

I was using it as the example. It was really low brow and stupid to even publish them

Anyone would change their minds after reading Adolf Eichmann's journal entrys.. He practically sabotaged part of the war effort in order to exterminate as many jews as he could... He stole trains from German generals in order to ship more jews to the camps...

[quote="Short Hand":17d30]ANyone would change their minds after reading Adolf Eichmann's journal entrys.. The practically sabotaged part of the war effort in order to exterminate as many jews as he could... He stole trains from German Generals in order to ship more jews to the camps...[/quote:17d30]
thanks Short, but don't expect ninty, machette and the anti-American brigade to accept that type of "hear-say!" rolleyes:



[quote=Machette]It's on the same debate level, look at what that Iran paper is doing..having a contest on who can make a cartoon best on mocking the holocaust.[/quote:17d30]
"It's on the same debate level"??

..are you even human anymore in your pretend blind hatred for America?
cartoons against muhammed = murdering millions of people?

but of course, on the other hand, people like yourself and ninty must go out of your way when you're upholding the rights of people who mock and deny the facts...even while they show their true nature by pretending to have a change of mind when it suits them, nice one ninty, good one machette...enjoying your freedoms there? freak:

yeah...we all, like... feel teh depth of ur belief mang eek:

if you cant make fun or yourself who can you?

[quote="Eight Ace":e1add] [quote=Machette]It's on the same debate level, look at what that Iran paper is doing..having a contest on who can make a cartoon best on mocking the holocaust.[/quote:e1add]
"It's on the same debate level"??

..are you even human anymore in your pretend blind hatred for America?
cartoons against muhammed = murdering millions of people?

but of course, on the other hand, people like yourself and ninty must go out of your way when you're upholding the rights of people who mock and deny the facts...even while they show their true nature by pretending to have a change of mind when it suits them, nice one ninty, good one machette...enjoying your freedoms there? freak:[/quote:e1add]

Eight Ace, I feel I may never understand the depths of you...Firstly I am in no ways against America, it irritates me every time I see you putting words in my mouth, it really does. I question things the Americans do but I don't hate them. I guess all the elite papers like New York Times and Canada's Globe and Mail are pretty stupid for putting this issue of freedom of speech for the holocaust and the cartoons on the same level, shame on them for being so irresponsible and spreading hate through their papers. It's not a question of the deaths in the holocaust, its about this mans freedom to speak out against it. I feel that you along with a handful of others on this board never express your opinion but instead lash out your anger on other peoples views instead of expressing your own argument. Are you against Irving's freedom of speech or for it? Thats all I asked. Not a rhetorical debate about cartoons and the holocaust. It's about freedom of speech, me saying its on the same debate level meant the freedom of speech issue - Should irving be allowed to deny the holocaust? Should Iran be able to publish satirical cartoons against the holocaust? That's what I meant. Should their be restrictions on freedom of speech?

Questions like that.

[quote:78a8f]Whether we like it or not, he has every right to say what he wants.[/quote:78a8f]

According to the Austrian government - no he does not.

[quote:78a8f]It's on the same debate level[/quote:78a8f]

Only as a matter of "freedom of speech" - other than that the two have precious little to do with each other.

[quote:78a8f]if i made a cartoon mocking christian conservatives, they would retaliate against me.[/quote:78a8f]

Uhm - in America? Or Europe? Mocking christian conservatives is done DAILY - and I dont know too many movie studios, etc. getting burned down.

Lets not be so damn naive here - this man proclaimed the Holocaust didnt happen in AUSTRIA. Not LONDON. Not CANADA. Not AU. Fucking AUSTRIA. Its on the same level as some fool giving the Nazi salute in Germany, and proclaiming "free speech.

This is a ridiculous debate anyway. There is no such thing as freedom of speech - what you say and cannot say is controlled in EVERY government.

I think he shoyuld have a right to say what he wants...but a country can do what they want...and if he did it their...he has every right to go down for it.

Same reason we don't chop off hands for stealing shit here...but if you go there and do it you should know you lose a hand for it.

"If we don't believe in freedom of expression for
people we despise, we don't believe in it at all."
-Noam Chomsky

Finally someone quoted chomsky. biggrin:

hah, i knew you'd like that mach

[quote="David Irving":68180]"I say quite tastelessly, in fact, that more women died on the back seat of Edward Kennedy's car at Chappaquiddick than ever died in a gas chamber in Auschwitz".[/quote:68180]
[quote="David Irving":68180]"I'm going to form an association of Auschwitz survivors, survivors of the Holocaust and other liars, or the ASSHOLS".[/quote:68180]
[quote="David Irving when he looked like facing jail time":68180]"I'm not a Holocaust denier. Obviously, I've changed my views. The Nazis did murder millions of Jews." added Irving[/quote:68180]

Said he changed his views when he went to Hitlers office and studied letters from Eichmann.

I wonder if he changed his spiteful mocking and outrageous hate jokes at the same time,
it's one thing to express a view that is counter to common belief, but to gleefully wallow
in the worst aspects of it and travel the world getting applause for it from nazi wannabes?

...then he reads a few Eichmann letters and he reverses his stance?, well dog my cats.. oOo:

"Perhaps the biggest insight into his deeper motivation comes not from the libel case, but from
the opening line of his introduction to the new edition of Hitler's War, posted on his website:

"To historians is granted a talent that even the gods are denied - to alter what has already happened."

[url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/irving/article/0,2763,181054,00.html:3fa62]Link[/url:3fa62]

o rly?

I suppose freedom of speech by definition could have no abuse-of freedom of speech type resctrictions....
[quote="Eight Ace":3fa62]I believe irving can say what he likes, but if he is arrogant enough to travel to a country that has laws against expressing that view and ends up in jail then LOL![/quote:3fa62]

I doubt he'll do 3yrs anyway, but as an upholder of free speech I think the Judges should use their imagination,
yes he should go on record as having broken an Austrian law, but he should only stay in jail as long as it takes
to meet with Holocaust survivors, credible historians, neo nazis chums etc, and arrange for all media to post his
new views compared to his previous ones.

maybe the failed conspiracy theorist could even throw in a few hand-written apologies to the
concentration camp survivors he actaully chose to testify against in court if they're still alive, that type of thing.

I'm not denying he is a coward but before he went into his holocaust denial he was a good historian. He wrote one of the greatest works on the destruction of dresden among other things, bad to see a career go to waste.