Mistranslation - complicated but highly important
 

Now I won't lie this is a complicated issue and if you want to find out what it's about it requires something most of you lack - the will to read. Christopher Hitchens is no stranger to intellectual fights. His most famous one was when he tried taking on chomsky after 9/11 and he failed, horribly. He eventually left "The Nation" (The magazine which hosted the article battle between chomsky and hitchens) because he was so embarassed..also because his ideology was changing. Hitchens was a renowned Trotskyist, he advocated suicide bombers in Palestine and was for the vietcong in vietnam and is also known for making fun of charlton heston before the first gulf war because he couldn't name 5 surrounding states around Iraq. However 9/11 abruptly changed him and he embraced neo-conservistism. For me he is a skilled writer but lately I have lost faith in him because of his reckless and useless attempts at claiming intellectual superiority.

I won't say much about Juan cole because its pretty self explainitory. He runs a well run blog on Middle East current events and is set to be going to Yale as a Professor of Middle East Studies.

However the issue being debated here is about the mistranslation of the iranian president's claim that "Israel should be wiped off the face of the map" Cole (who speaks Arabic and Persian) believes that the quote is taken out of context and is rather - "This regime that is occupying Qods [Jerusalem] must be eliminated from the pages of history."

Now that is the basics..I'd rather not write more because these links basically sum up the issue.

If you post in here saying "bullshit" please be sure you READ the links before you make your claims.

Summary of debate:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bill-sche ... 20350.html

Hitchens on Cole:
http://www.slate.com/id/2140947/

Cole on Hitchens:
http://www.juancole.com/2006/05/hitchen ... chens.html

What MEMRI says:
http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page= ... D=SP101305

Another wrap:
http://www.liberaloasis.com/archives/050706.htm#050906

If any of you have questions..I'll try to answer them.

So no one has objections? Good.

No offense, but yeah, I don't want to read it. I'm not lazy, I just feel like I have better things to do.

I don't know much about the topic, but from that other translation "erased from history"...what is the guy implying then? Does he want to go into the word documents and use BACKSPACE on Israel? It still seems like he is implying some sort of violence. That's me without reading everything and may not have any legitimacy so....

Yeah I think you better read the article(s)..What you wrote is answered within the articles..Guess I once again under estimated everyones literacy skills on this site. oOo:

literacy isn't the issue. It's more of the willingness to devote hours of my life reading articles so Machette can respond.

What else are you doing of importance? Oh yeah, watching American Idol. ed: eek:

I agree with coleman

I exercise. I practice my instrument. I work. I go places with friends. I review material for the next semesters. Maybe if I was a poli sci major, it'd be a different story. But I'm not.

Alright I can see where this is going and I'd rather it not go there. And sirus do you even know the issue here?

[quote:c6b73]He quoted Khomeini that "the occupation regime over Jerusalem should vanish from the page of time[/quote:c6b73]
did the media just reword the presidents speech to make him look like hitler?

Coleman, if you're going to comment on it then actually READ it. If you can't be fucked reading it, how can you be fucked posting about it, especially when you barely even know what it's about.....?

Just have to snap your conservative fingers at anything Machette posts or something? rolleyes:

I read the first link and it just reminded me why a blog isnt news

I don't know how saying Isreal should be deleted from history is being "conservative and trying to make machette mad".

[quote="Sgt>Stackem":bc632]I read the first link and it just reminded me why a blog isnt news[/quote:bc632]Or why it's suddenly taking over the news? Give me a fucking break. rolleyes:

Explain to me how he is wrong..don't give me a sentence saying blogs are useless, that just shows me among others on this board you are incapable of making a relative post to the topic at hand. Back your argument up with something.

I have no will to read so I will die an ignorant man

Alright, I'll try to make sense of this issue. Like I said this is important. I know alot of people on this planet don't like to read long essays or news articles. Mainly because they would rather have it in a 2 paragraph news article..which will obviously miss alot of certain things in that issue. I won't generalize Americans in this category alone becuase alot of my Canadian counter parts are the same. This issue is important for one reason and one reason only. A translation which has been misinterpreted is being used daily by the media. I could read my daily news right now and spot a sentence like this - "Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad who has declared that Israel should be wiped off the map said so and so" Catch my drift? This translation has been used daily it seems and the people in government whether it be Canada or the U.S or in Europe are saying this translation as well..saying how they can't deal with someone who wants Israel off the map. Now most of you will think this is nonsense and that's fine - I understand you made your stance even though you didn't read the material at hand - The media obviously won't report this because why on earth would they want to say they made such a big mistake? People would, I hope, be very angry.

The MEMRI is a well known institute it's publications have been used in the NY Times and the Guardian also for BBC News. It's been noted that in Persian their is no word for "map" that's why the translation is so different and well, so wrong to be "Israel should be wiped off the map"

he went on and on, he didnt offer another translation. He is ranting and it is his OPINIONS, OPINIONS ARE NOT NEWS THEY ARE OPINIONS

Don't take my quote out of context - I obviously didn't say that.

You were obviously just chiming in on this thread because you're argumentative, It certainly looked that way, anyway....

[quote="Sgt>Stackem":edfd0]he went on and on, he didnt offer another translation. He is ranting and it is his OPINIONS, OPINIONS ARE NOT NEWS THEY ARE OPINIONS[/quote:edfd0]Yes because perhaps you did not click on the links provided within his post. This one being the most important. And this link is not a opinion it is a fact. Did you even read the post properly? ffs.

[url="http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP101305"]http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page= ... D=SP101305[/url]

From that:

[quote:edfd0]'This regime that is occupying Qods [Jerusalem] must be eliminated from the pages of history.'[/quote:edfd0]

rather than "Israel must be wiped off the map"

That whole site is the proper translation from, probably, his most famous speech. It was included in the first blog you read..which you ultimately responded with a "good thing blogs arn't news" Maybe you just didn't click on the links within it? oOo:

I found this arguement in video format..if any of you wish to find out what this all means rather than read, just watch this.

http://bloggingheads.tv/?id=88&cid=314

So the actual translation is
[quote:a3c18] 'This regime that is occupying Qods [Jerusalem] must be eliminated from the pages of history.'[/quote:a3c18] ? Is that what you are saying, that he didn't actually say he wanted Israel wiped off the map, but that the Israeli government should be wiped out of history?

His real name is Courtney

[quote="TGB!":a585c]I neither have the time, nor the patience to indulge any of the "oh lets hop on the Israel is baaaaad bandwagon and force ourselves to defend religious fundementalists, nevermind the fact that every other word out of our mouthes is poo-pooing on those bad american fundamentalists who talk about wiping gays from the face of the planet" bullshit that "informed intellectual progressives" seem to be intent on riding into the ground.

But I do have to ask this - what exactly does "wipe from history" mean to you MACHETTE. Its almost like a SERIAL KILLER taking umbrage with the fact that a newspaper reported that he raped and mutilated 14 yr old girls, instead of the reality of him raping and mutilating 60 year old women. The "clean" statement is hardly a statement thats going to get the President of Iran invited to break challah on the sabbath. This is a ridiculous fucking debate over semantics, that "underground" neo-progressives have picked up on to attack the media establishment (re: The Bush Controlled Media) and make themselves feel as if they have gained ground in the "war" on Neo-Conservatism.

Macehtte - if that is your real name - you read too fucking much. And yes, that is an insult. You remind me of this guy who memorized every "issue" that he could get his hands on, and could recite verbotim the pros and cons of the subject as dictated in the text of the articles read. . .and that was the depth of his understanding of things. All surface. [/quote:a585c]

I'll congratulate you on your opening sentence. Because as you basically stated you didn't read the material at hand, proving your post groundless. Highly groundless to say the least. I enjoyed your entire post even the end when you brought in personal attacks, quite ingenious in a political debate..If you even bothered to read, which you didn't, the MEMRI site which backs up coles claim. MEMRI is known for it's right wing publications and is widely known in corporate media. I don't think it's necessary to continue further because as you stated "I have neither the time or patience" so kindly get out of this thread. This issue isn't about Israel defending itself or American's taking over the world it's about a mistranslation and if you READ everything I gave to the readers, even a video you would know the issue at hand. You have taken everything out of context and issued what seems to be a sterotypical response labelling my post as anti-american and anti-israel. Kindly read everything and if you don't kindly cease from posting.

It would be easier if you didn't give us 30 million articles to have to read. You profess to know about the issue, so why don't you tell us about it instead of letting the 30 million links do it for you?

And please answer my clarification question in my last post..

I don't understand why this is such a big deal if the quote was only that different from the actual translation. They both suggest the same thing in different words, that's probably why the media isn't changing it, because they both send the same message...

I think these people are making something out of nothing.

[quote:c5a3b]I'll congratulate you on your opening sentence. Because as you basically stated you didn't read the material at hand, proving your post groundless.[/quote:c5a3b]

Youll note Mr. Wizard - that my comment had fuck all to do with the content of the article, and everything to do with the movement Ive noticed in certain "intellectual circles".

I'm not going to even bother with your multi-syllalabic cry for "Hey I Be Smart" kudos -

I DONT need to read the article since nothing in the above reply was a rebuke or refutation of anyones findings. I could give two shits if you try to qualify your "credible" source by claiming its right-wing, etc. etc. My comment isnt focused on that. Its focused on the hilarity of the "revised" quote, and the progressive blogsphere jumping on it as a proxy for right-wing-attacks, nevermind that the "revised" translation isnt any better or less inflammatory than the original comment ("Hey they arent saying to wipe anyone of the planet - they just dont want them to exist in history, past, present, or future - TOTALLY different") - hence the analogy which I guess was SO SIMPLE that it didnt even register in your advanced analytical mind.

As for "personal attacks" - when you preface a reply with a backhanded bullshit "Oh I know noone here likes to actually read anything", and follow up with a sloopy "Oh I undersestimated the literacy level of youse dudes" (keep reading that - you'll figure out why that "subtle" insult doesnt work), you basically open yourself up to getting as much as you give.

And finally - youre not as smart as you think you are Machette. Too bad you seem to be the last person to get that. . .

[quote="Simo Häyhä":e3709]His real name is Courtney[/quote:e3709]

You're about as funny as having the thrill of watching your own parents be gunned down. oOo:

[quote=geRV]You're about as funny as having the thrill of watching your own parents be gunned down. oOo:[/quote:622f3]
Drink 60 shots of 100% pure isopropyl alcohol in 60 seconds and test your driving skills

[quote="Simo Häyhä":33f3c][quote=geRV]You're about as funny as having the thrill of watching your own parents be gunned down. oOo:[/quote:33f3c]
Drink 60 shots of 100% pure isopropyl alcohol in 60 seconds and test your driving skills[/quote:33f3c]

Only after you inhale a kilogram of anthrax.

yea, what he said

[quote="TGB!":24ab2][quote:24ab2]I'll congratulate you on your opening sentence. Because as you basically stated you didn't read the material at hand, proving your post groundless.[/quote:24ab2]

Youll note Mr. Wizard - that my comment had fuck all to do with the content of the article, and everything to do with the movement Ive noticed in certain "intellectual circles".

I'm not going to even bother with your multi-syllalabic cry for "Hey I Be Smart" kudos -

I DONT need to read the article since nothing in the above reply was a rebuke or refutation of anyones findings. I could give two shits if you try to qualify your "credible" source by claiming its right-wing, etc. etc. My comment isnt focused on that. Its focused on the hilarity of the "revised" quote, and the progressive blogsphere jumping on it as a proxy for right-wing-attacks, nevermind that the "revised" translation isnt any better or less inflammatory than the original comment ("Hey they arent saying to wipe anyone of the planet - they just dont want them to exist in history, past, present, or future - TOTALLY different") - hence the analogy which I guess was SO SIMPLE that it didnt even register in your advanced analytical mind.

As for "personal attacks" - when you preface a reply with a backhanded bullshit "Oh I know noone here likes to actually read anything", and follow up with a sloopy "Oh I undersestimated the literacy level of youse dudes" (keep reading that - you'll figure out why that "subtle" insult doesnt work), you basically open yourself up to getting as much as you give.

And finally - youre not as smart as you think you are Machette. Too bad you seem to be the last person to get that. . .[/quote:24ab2]

TGB, thank you for informing me that I'm not that smart..no shit. I didn't know someone on the internet had to tell me that. I can look at my essay grades and see that I'm no genius. Also it's funny that you use my countless reading as a argument that I always imply I am smarter than people. That is false. When I talk to my friends and they visit me I never boast or elevate myself higher than their intelligence. I don't sit in front of my computer with a Michel Foucault pipe and ponder like Nietzsche. I never have or ever will elevate myself. And to say "advanced analytical mind." is again, a myth. You are labelling my something that you wish to view me as and that is wrong. Like I said I know I am no genius or a smarter person than anyone on this board. I read and you use that as a justification that I like to think I'm smart. Keep it up TGB!

Also c312 and Stackem I'll try my best. Cole (Middle East Proffessor at U of Michigan) wrote a email in some round circle of intellects type group. Somebody stole this email and gave it to Hitchens. The email stated how the translation which is widely known as "wipe Israel off the map" may be wrong. Cole who is arabic and knows persian believes that can't be. Because in persian their is no phrase such as "wipe off the map" Now Hitchens ripped his argument apart by listing a source by the NY Times translator in Theran and said something like "this mans persian is just as good as Coles" which is a pretty strange statement because how would Hitchens know about Cole's persian? Cole threatened legal action stating he stole intellectual property etc etc. Now this MEMRI group, which Hitchens holds much trust in - Hitchens quoted some sources before from the group in his articles - published the speech and it was pretty much the same as Coles. This group has also had vast differences with cole in the past. Cole made some claims that it was Israel run group and was totally anti-arab. Now most of you will ask how is "This regime that is occupying Qods [Jerusalem] must be eliminated from the pages of history." different from "Wipe Israel off the map" When America said they wanted to end the regime in Iraq did you mean you wanted to kill everybody? No. I know this issue is complex and I missed a bunch of important issues. Most of you will view this as blog o crap material and that's fine. But why would a soon to be Yale prof say this? He may have some ground on this issue. I won't pass this as 100% proof that everything is wrong. Some one can undoubtly find material that Ahmadinejad said earlier about Israel. It's just that this one quote may have been misunderstood, that's all.

thanks for the summary machette. I think what stakem and c are trying to say is, how isn't the new and "true" translation any different from the older one. It seems to me that the "real" translation contains just as much violence as did the "whiping off the face of the earth" translation. Because of this, I don't see what the big arguement is.

exactly, they both imply aggressive intentions...

and there is a difference between Iran's president using the phrase "regime change" and our president using it. The situations are different in obvious ways, so I don't think I need to clarify. Let me know if I do though...
rolleyes:

So when the iranian president says "regime change" he means lets kill every israeli citizen?

Perhaps.

Well that's your interpretation. I think he's stating that the "occupying regime" in the territories should be eliminated from the pages of history. A regime is also:
"1. A form of government: a fascist regime.
2. A government in power; administration: suffered under the new regime.
3. A prevailing social system or pattern.
4. The period during which a particular administration or system prevails.
5. A regulated system, as of diet and exercise; a regimen."

stop playing semantics he wants to blow israelies off the face of the planet

Softened? More like taken out of context.

Here he is talking to Indonesian students yesterday

[url=http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/rock-star-greeting-for-iran-leaders-nuclear-defiance/2006/05/11/1146940679179.html:1afb7]Article[/url:1afb7]

"The speech lacked the extremes of ones back home - there was no mention of the
US as the great Satan - but he smiled as he promised he would witness Israel's disappearance."

But I'm sure machette will find out he really meant he would put on some
really dark glasses and it would just seem like Israel disappeared or something.... eek:

talk about drawing a long fucking bow.