[ninty]

I just watched a program on CBC about the Hiroshima bombing and I just thought I’d throw my in 2 cents in general about the bombings, not in response to anyone in particular.

First off, I think I’d have to say that I believe the bombings should not have taken place. It's really hard for me to justify bombing civilian populations whether it is Hiroshima, Dresden, London, Berlin or any other city.

Did it end the war? Probably. Did it save lives? Probably. But even after those ideas are considered, I still can't support bombing of civilian populations.

After watching the program, my opinion was reinforced even more. Some things I picked up for the program:

-Temps under the blast (the bomb did not go off on impact, rather it was on a timer and exploded above ground) were 4,000 degrees Celsius at the moment the bomb detonated. Anyone around the vicinity was immediately vaporized, or turned immediately to carbon.

-The heat was so intense that where people were standing on pavement, it left a shadow of their footprints in the pavement after they were vaporized.

-The exact number of instantaneous deaths from the explosion are not known, however are thought to be in the tens of thousands.

-Those that did survive went looking for water. There was one story of a nurse who crawled out to the back of the hospital where there was a pool of water. By the time she got there, there were many people crowded around the pool of water trying to drink it. However, others had climbed on top of those first people to try to drink, thus drowning the people underneath.

-Another story was one of a Dr who lived 4 miles from the blast. The shockwave threw him through his house, but he was OK enough to go toward the city to help. On his way he ran into something he called a "monster". People in Japan dress in white in the summer, but this monster was all in black. He collapsed near the Dr and he rushed to him. The doctor went to take his pulse, however there was no skin on his arm. The Dr looked at his face and his eyes were swollen shut. He had no nose and no mouth.

-Shortly after the bombing, the rising mushroom cloud mixed in with the humid air to create rain clouds. These clouds picked up dust and debris from the bomb. It started to rain, but the rain was black like oil. All the people on the ground started to collect the water, because it was all they had. However, they did not know that this water was dense with radioactivity, and those that drank the rainwater died.

For me, any way you slice it this is not justifiable.

[Short Hand]

Originally Posted by ninty

I just watched a program on CBC about the Hiroshima bombing and I just thought I’d throw my in 2 cents in general about the bombings, not in response to anyone in particular.

First off, I think I’d have to say that I believe the bombings should not have taken place. It's really hard for me to justify bombing civilian populations whether it is Hiroshima, Dresden, London, Berlin or any other city.

Did it end the war? Probably. Did it save lives? Probably. But even after those ideas are considered, I still can't support bombing of civilian populations.

After watching the program, my opinion was reinforced even more. Some things I picked up for the program:

-Temps under the blast (the bomb did not go off on impact, rather it was on a timer and exploded above ground) were 4,000 degrees Celsius at the moment the bomb detonated. Anyone around the vicinity was immediately vaporized, or turned immediately to carbon.

-The heat was so intense that where people were standing on pavement, it left a shadow of their footprints in the pavement after they were vaporized.

-The exact number of instantaneous deaths from the explosion are not known, however are thought to be in the tens of thousands.

-Those that did survive went looking for water. There was one story of a nurse who crawled out to the back of the hospital where there was a pool of water. By the time she got there, there were many people crowded around the pool of water trying to drink it. However, others had climbed on top of those first people to try to drink, thus drowning the people underneath.

-Another story was one of a Dr who lived 4 miles from the blast. The shockwave threw him through his house, but he was OK enough to go toward the city to help. On his way he ran into something he called a "monster". People in Japan dress in white in the summer, but this monster was all in black. He collapsed near the Dr and he rushed to him. The doctor went to take his pulse, however there was no skin on his arm. The Dr looked at his face and his eyes were swollen shut. He had no nose and no mouth.

-Shortly after the bombing, the rising mushroom cloud mixed in with the humid air to create rain clouds. These clouds picked up dust and debris from the bomb. It started to rain, but the rain was black like oil. All the people on the ground started to collect the water, because it was all they had. However, they did not know that this water was dense with radioactivity, and those that drank the rainwater died.

For me, any way you slice it this is not justifiable.

The history channel is re airing History In The Pacific" soon, it gives a pretty gripping details on it as well. You should watch it if you have the chance.

[Tripper]

[quote=Tripper]

Originally Posted by "Short Hand":b741a

Communication was scattered. " The true depth of what had happned had not really been fully explained until a day after the dropping of the 2nd bomb.

That's just not good enough, I'm also thinking the source is fairly questionable - and that maybe you have exaggerated a totally minor insignificant phrase. Either way, it doesn't change anything. It's irrelevant. If they didn't realise the extent of damage 3 days after a bomb had hit a CITY how do you possibly believe dropping it outside of a city would help at all?[/quote:b741a]

[Short Hand]

[quote=Tripper]

Originally Posted by Tripper

That's just not good enough, I'm also thinking the source is fairly questionable - and that maybe you have exaggerated a totally minor insignificant phrase. Either way, it doesn't change anything. It's irrelevant. If they didn't realise the extent of damage 3 days after a bomb had hit a CITY how do you possibly believe dropping it outside of a city would help at all?

[/quote:c27a4]

Just recycling crap that was spewed out here from before. Take it to my ass if you have ap orblem. Or better yet.. google it and find out. Make me look like a moron I could really give a fuck Chav. rolleyes:

[Johnj]

So what you guys are saying is it would have been better to invade the Japanese home islands, resulting in 1 to 2 million casualties for the Allies, and genocide for the Japanese. How compassionate.

[Tripper]

[quote="Short Hand":10807][quote=Tripper]

Originally Posted by Tripper

That's just not good enough, I'm also thinking the source is fairly questionable - and that maybe you have exaggerated a totally minor insignificant phrase. Either way, it doesn't change anything. It's irrelevant. If they didn't realise the extent of damage 3 days after a bomb had hit a CITY how do you possibly believe dropping it outside of a city would help at all?

[/quote:10807]

Just recycling crap that was spewed out here from before. Take it to my ass if you have ap orblem. Or better yet.. google it and find out. Make me look like a moron I could really give a fuck Chav. rolleyes:[/quote:10807]


Don't act like a baby when you get proved wrong.

[KTOG]

Originally Posted by Johnj

So what you guys are saying is it would have been better to invade the Japanese home islands, resulting in 1 to 2 million casualties for the Allies, and genocide for the Japanese. How compassionate.

You can't make that assumption because it never happend. If we made land fall it could have been another vietnam or a quick victory, you never know.

[Wilko]

Originally Posted by KTOG

You can't make that assumption because it never happend. If we made land fall it could have been another vietnam or a quick victory, you never know.

True, but you could make a pretty safe assumption that, judging by the fanaticism of the Japanese, it would have been a hard-fought and bloody affair

[Scorched Earth]

Originally Posted by rdeyes

took them long enough to decide to surrender oOo:

Uh...well when whole towns are obliterated to dust and whole populations are vaporized, you might be a bit less organized after. Ya need recoup and then make the decision. Im sure they were jus thinking survival of their own people before signing because we obviously made our point and did our damage.

[Short Hand]

[quote=Tripper][quote="Short Hand":f6a05]

Originally Posted by Tripper

Just recycling crap that was spewed out here from before. Take it to my ass if you have ap orblem. Or better yet.. google it and find out. Make me look like a moron I could really give a fuck Chav. rolleyes:[/quote:f6a05]


Don't act like a baby when you get proved wrong.[/quote:f6a05]

You have to be the largest child on this site, 80 % of your posts involve childish insults or talking about a cock you had a few nights back....Your sole purpose in the political forum seems to be finding my posts and insulting a word I forgot to capitilize... rolleyes: You could just fuck off and act a little older.. but that will never happen. Continue on chav. eek:

-On another note, Ktog is right in the sense of we can not really tell what the casulty estimates would have been. We can also not really guess what could have been.. only talk about what did.

[Tripper]

Originally Posted by KTOG

You can't make that assumption because it never happend. If we made land fall it could have been another vietnam or a quick victory, you never know.

It's a totally different issue in Hindsight. Look at it from the point of view of someone before the bombs hit.

Just like we make assumptions about an Invasion, had we made the invasion with horrifying casualties, we would make assumptions about dropping the bomb.

I'm sort of confused about what part of this issue we are disputing, I mean, I don't see a possible invasion as a better option, if I was in the shoes of those that made the decision.

[quote="Scorched Earth":261a5]

Originally Posted by rdeyes

took them long enough to decide to surrender oOo:

Uh...well when whole towns are obliterated to dust and whole populations are vaporized, you might be a bit less organized after. Ya need recoup and then make the decision. Im sure they were jus thinking survival of their own people before signing because we obviously made our point and did our damage.[/quote:261a5]

The military officials and the Emperor weren't in either Nagasaki, or Hiroshima. They had 3 days between the bombings. It shouldn't take that long to decide, "We're fucked. Lets give up."

If they actually cared about their citizens they would have made the smart decision after the first bomb. But politicians rarely ever actually care about their own people, I guess.


[quote="Short Hand":261a5]
You have to be the largest child on this site, 80 % of your posts involve childish insults or talking about a cock you had a few nights back....[/quote:261a5]

If you want to flame me about the way I act in offtopic, bring it up there. Otherwise, stfu and stop ruining the thread.

[quote="Short Hand":261a5]Your sole purpose in the political forum seems to be finding my posts and insulting a word I forgot to capitilize...[/quote:261a5]

Please quote ONCE where I have done anything like this on the Political forum, before you go shooting your mouth off. Otherwise you are just making pointless flames - Something we don't want in this forum. At least with my critical judgements of your arguing, I had clear and obvious evidence.

[quote="Short Hand":261a5]
rolleyes: You could just fuck off and act a little older.. but that will never happen. Continue on chav. eek: [/quote:261a5]

LOL - Look at this post you made, buddy. Telling me to act a little older? Get a fucking grip. You're the guy who went nuts simply because I proved him wrong. If someone ever proves me wrong, at least I accept the fact and move on - You just throw a hissy fit, just like you've demonstrated now.

I don't think you're ready for this forum, yet. You need to stop being so pathetic and move on.

[ninty]

Chillax Dudes

[img]http://www.computerclubhouse.org/flagship/people/Mel/images/chill'n.jpg[/img]

[KTOG]

You both are disproving yourselves by letting this go on. So stop and get back on topic.

[Tripper]

Hey, I'm not the one who brought flaming into this thread. oOo:

But whatever, I'm done now - Made my point.

[Johnj]

I based my estimates using the same reports Truman had. I understand that pre-battle estimates on Iwo Jima, and Okinawa were pretty close. Of course during both of those battles about the only prisoners captured were too wounded to fight. If we had invaded Japan it would have been a blood bath. And the only Japanese to survive would have been the Japanese that were not in Japan.

To have set off the bomb outside of a city, where loss of life would not be so great, would have been seen as a sign of weakness on our part, and would have spurred them on. (Short that means to keep on fighting) The war could have dragged on into 1946, even 1947. Japan could have finished their atomic bomb program, and guess where they would have tried to deploy their bomb?